Romantic Notions of Corpo America

Subtitled: Listen to it at your own risk.

 Key topics:

✔️ This one person quit over RTO and you can, too! *said in the manner of "Champagne wishes & caviar dreams" on the old Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous.*
✔️It's not 2021 anymore. The FOMO & YOLO of the markets we saw then is gone now.
✔️"Productivity paranoia" is not going anywhere. Watch that creepy, nightmare-inducing video from the WEF if you think otherwise.
✔️"'You're going to end up losing them anyway,'" she said."  No, you won't. I stand by my track record of accurate predictions. Too many people live paycheck-to-paycheck and have debt for everyone in the US to sit it out with $0 pay. Not gonna happen.


Links:

https://www.businessinsider.com/remote-work-return-to-office-quit-job-micromanager-boss-salary-2023-4

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/09/the-coming-commercial-real-estate-crash-that-may-never-happen.html

Links where I can be found: https://causeyconsultingllc.com/2023/01/30/updates-housekeeping/

Need more? Email me: https://causeyconsultingllc.com/contact-causey/ 

Transcript

Unknown: 0:15

Welcome to the Causey Consulting Podcast. You can find us online anytime at CauseyConsultingLLC.com. And now, here's your host, Sara Causey. Hello, Hello, and thanks for tuning in. In today's episode, I really want to call out this narrative that we're hearing in some mainstream media news outlets that there will be a nationwide strike, there will be a nationwide set out to protest full on RTO. You're somehow expected to believe that even though most Americans live paycheck to paycheck, and we have record levels of debt, some of the statistics around what's going on in the market are as bad or worse, as they were during oh eight and oh nine. You're supposed to ignore all of that. You're supposed to get some kind of confirmation bias. That tells you because a handful of people have resigned over full on RTO. That means everybody in the country will walk out. I stand by my predictions, and I invite you to not take my word for it. Go read my blog posts, listen to other podcast episodes, and see for yourself. My prediction track record is pretty freakin good. And that's sad. Because I've made some rather Debbie Downer type predictions about the economy, about the job market, about hucksters and con artists and various things that I felt like we should expect to see. I wish that that wasn't true. But here we are. And I'm telling you, prediction alert. This idea, this romantic, quixotic notion that everyone will just live on nothing. They will live for months on end with zero income in some idealistic battle. To continue with remote work. I call BS on that. I don't see it happening. What are you going to do when your kids are hungry? What are you gonna do when your pets are hungry? You're just gonna let everybody starve? no children, no pets. This is an idealistic battle. I am like Don Quixote fighting the windmills dammit, I will sit out here and we will all starve to death if that's what it takes to avoid full RTO. Really, in your heart of hearts. When you think about this issue, do you really believe that you really think that people will just sit and starve and or allow their children and their pets to starve to no money? Maybe you think that everyone will live off of credit cards for a while, and perhaps they will for a while. But as we get further into this downturn, those lines of credit are going the option to just live on credit cards for six months while you sweat it out. That may not be an option for a lot of people. So I find this hot air hopium and Bs nonsense to be exactly that. And my goal in making broadcasts like this is to simply wake it up and shake it up for people to say, hey, look, I am a subject matter expert in staffing and recruiting. I've been involved in the job market every day for over a decade. I do not see any way possible that there will be huge swathes of the population in the US that will simply sit at home unpaid for months on end. Now see, the other side of this is people will say, well, it's only going to take them that long, they'll resign from a full RTO job. And then within I don't know, maybe a month or two, they'll be fully remote again somewhere else. And so it won't really matter. As long as they have enough money in the bank to provide for themselves and their family for a month or two, they'll probably be fine. Oh, and don't forget they might qualify for unemployment just depends on the circumstances. Sure. Go and talk to people that are actually in the job market and listen to what they have to say about the length of time it's taking them to secure a job after a layoff or after a resignation. Are there exceptions to the rule? Of course, you may find that the guy down the street says you know what, I was unemployed for one week and we didn't suffer at all for it. But you will find 1000s other people who will tell you I sat on the job market for months. And I sat here and I sat here and I wondered how on earth is there a labor shortage? How on earth are all these come Money supposedly hiring and I can't find anything. I sent out 200 applications and receive zero callbacks. I also warned you about fake job postings and BS that these companies post for optics. They don't want to admit problems. They don't want to go out in the public and make it look like oh, we're on a hiring freeze. So, Oops, oh, we might be in financial trouble. They don't want to do that by and large. So they'll have these evergreen job requisitions posted on their website. That doesn't mean anybody's gonna get hired. I also predicted that some of these companies that went out of business would still have 58 wrecks posted the same day they declared bankruptcy, or the same day, they closed their doors, and I'm being vindicated on that, too. I wish it weren't so I do. But unfortunately, I think I'll be vindicated on all of this as well. I'm going to say it again, for the people in the back, I don't see any way that you're going to have masses of the population living paycheck to paycheck and dealing with personal debt. That will just say, I will live on zero money, I will figure out a way to be a freegan. And I don't know not pay the car note, not pay the rent, not pay the mortgage, not buy food for the kids. I'll figure out some way to make it because I am so ideologically committed to remote work that I will starve and I will allow the kids to starve to. I don't see that happening. Please be realistic about this. On Easter Sunday, there was an article published on Business Insider titled A worker, Okay, before we ever go any further, a worker quitting a six figure job so she won't have to return to the office full time says she's a victim of her boss's productivity paranoia. I don't need to be in an office to do my work and quote, when our bosses paranoid, of course, is it about productivity? Hell, no. It's about surveillance. It's about control. It's about obedience. I told you that before. A lot of these hiring managers ask themselves the question, even if they're not doing it out loud, even if they're not doing it in their conscious mind. I swear to you, even if it's on some unconscious or subconscious level that they're not even cognizant of, they ask themselves the question, are you going to go along to get along? Or are you going to be a problem, pal? And so for those of us like myself, who are introverted, we're not willing to do the dog and pony show of going to Billy Bob's barbecue every Saturday or playing cornhole and pickleball, with our colleagues and going to happy hour every Thursday night and doing all of these things that take time away from our family, and our children, we get punished for that. So people like me, go into entrepreneurship. And we say, No, thanks, I will take the risk. I'll carry my own benefits, and I'll do what I have to do to survive on my own. Because the risk that I take in doing this is better than the hill I experienced by feeling like a left foot stuck inside a right shoe. That option, however, is not an option for everybody. And I acknowledge that. Whenever I see these similar types of posts online about this lady sells belly button lint and a jar and makes$3 million a year. This lady turned her side hustle of wanting up pantyhose and making pillowcases out of them into a$5,000 a day side hustle and you're just like, oh, okay, great, right? Because everybody can do that. No, no, it's like drop shipping. By the time that something becomes ubiquitous and everybody's doing it. The profit margin has already gone. If somebody struck paydirt, by washing up pantyhose and putting it into a pillowcase or something, what are the odds that you're going to have the same level of success in doing that? But yet these hopium articles make it sound that way, don't they? It's like a YouTube. I go back again to Robin Leach and Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous champagne wishes and caviar dreams, YouTube and live Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous except you can't. I mean, I guess a lot of that depends on whether you're a Nepo Baby, are you a trust funder? Are you one of the hyper elites that has more money than God? For the rest of us down here on planet earth? No. You may not be able to quit your full time job and be a full time freelancer. You may not be able to quit your full time job and sell your gas in a jar or your bathwater in a drawer. But yet that that's the kind of hopium that gets promoted to you as a solution. I'm using massive air quotes here as a solution. Because we can't ever call out the elephant in the room. We don't need to say that it's about crony capitalism and a rigged system that enriches these blood suckers. No, God, no, no. Naughty naughty, you can't say that. No, what you have to do instead is act like you too, can sell gas in a jar and be a millionaire. You too, can wad pantyhose into a pillowcase and make pillows and be an overnight millionaire. And it's like, right, okay. Sure. Sure, of course. But common sense would obviously tell anyone that's not going to be a viable solution. So anyway, back to this Business Insider article, a worker, one human being has quit a six figure job, so she won't have to return to the office full time. Yes, bosses have paranoia. No, it's not about productivity by and large. And yes, I agree. You don't need to be in an office to do your work, especially if you've been remote all through the pandemic. You were successful. There were no performance issues. Hello, we get it. In the TLDR summary, we find Felicia 53 is leaving her job after being asked to work in person five days a week. For over a year. She worked three days at home and two in her office a perfect balance for her. But she'd rather find a job that pays less than keep going in for five days. From front bumper it's given. Felicia isn't sold on returning to the office after getting called back five days a week she's leaving her job altogether. She'd rather forego a six figure salary than be in the office every day. I know how to do my job. I don't need to be in an office to do my work. She told Insider. I just knew I didn't want to go back to what it felt like before. Felicia is a 53 year old administrator and Arizona insider verified her last name, employment and salary, but she asked that they be withheld to protect her privacy. As firms tighten their belts, the era of fully remote work may be ending. The Bureau of Labor Statistics recently said it found that nearly 73% of companies offered little to no telework in September, a big leap from 60% in 2021. Major companies including those that have done layoffs are mandating that workers come back in. For some workers, the choice has been between coming back or getting fired. But Felicia is seeing herself out. For a year and a half. Her office had a hybrid model three days at home and two days in the office. She described it as the perfect work life balance. I found that I got a lot more work done. When I was working the hybrid days, she said referring to her day spent at home. She added that in the office, there were so many distractions and interruptions that she couldn't keep up with our workload. I was going home and working for hours because I couldn't get the work done, she said. But just a month or so into having to work fully in person Felicia turned in her notice of resignation. She said she liked being able to quietly focus while working virtually and then flipping the switch and seeing coworkers in person on in office days. Now water cooler gossip has returned in full force and she feels like she's seeing less of her team. She realized while sitting in traffic one day that it was time to go just sitting there and thinking oh my goodness, that feeling of I have a meeting coming up. And I'm stuck in this, she said and it's like why am I doing this to myself when it's not even necessary. As they focus on efficiency and belt tightening managers want to see evidence that their employees are working. Even after years of remote work. Some managers are disproportionately worried that their employees aren't working a phenomenon known as productivity paranoia. Felicia said the perception among managers at her company was that hybrid employees weren't working. I heard a lot. Oh, you guys were only working two days per week and offer three she said and it's like, no, that's not true. We got most of our work done when we were working the three at home. She said several other people she knows that her workplaces have left for more remote or hybrid jobs, adding that their appearance of freedom made her miss the balance she had and inspired her departure. I just got to the point where it just wasn't working for me, she said, and I walked away from over a $100,000 per year salary to seek positions that have hybrid options so I can have that work life balance. Felicia said she's looking for roles that would offer her smaller, excuse me would offer her similar flexibility, even if they pay less than what she makes now. The payoff is the driving and the traffic and the stress of being on the road five days per week versus being able to do the very same work. And more from the convenience of the hybrid option, she said Felicia said she thinks that more inflexible return to Office mandates could harm productivity and lead to an exodus especially among workers who are satisfied with their jobs but don't want to work in an Office, you're going to end up losing them anyway, she said, end quote. There's a lot there a lot just in this one article, there's a lot of things that we can take a look at. I get too deep into it. We'll be here all day. And nobody wants that. But interesting. One, one component that we're never told, what is her financial situation? We're told that she's foregoing a six figure salary in order to look for less money at a job that's either hybrid, or fully remote. That's all that we're told. We have no idea. Did she recently inherit money? Did she have a sizable nest egg? Is she living at home with somebody else and doesn't have a mortgage to pay or rent to pay? I have no idea. I have no idea. But see, that's the thing. Neither do you. We don't know what her financial profile is like, maybe she's paid off all of her debts. And she can live beneath her means. Maybe she was making $100,000 a year but can now make 70 to 80 and still be fine. Maybe she clipped some coupons and cuts a few corners here and there. But she can still make it work. A lot of people in America can't do that. So I would love to know the backstory of what is her financial situation like, because not everybody can take a hit. Not everybody can say I'm making 100k now, and we're doing what we need to do. The bills are paid, there's a little bit extra. And as long as we don't go crazy, we're fine. And then turn around and say, You know what, I'm going to have this ideological battle with corporate America and sit it out at the house, I can make 70 or 80k, I can take that 20 to$30,000 pay cut, and we'll still be fine. Not everybody is in that situation. For a lot of people, a 20 to $30,000 pay cut would hurt for some people that might make the difference between keeping all have the plates spinning in the air, versus having all of the plates fall off and break into a million pieces. So I would be curious to know what what is the situation of this person? How is she able to do this? Because not everybody is. They also reiterate in this article that the Bureau of Labor Statistics recently said it found that nearly 73% of companies offered little to no telework in September, a big leap from 60% in 2021. These companies that have done layoffs are mandating that workers come back in some workers have been given the choice of come on back or get fired. Come on backer, it's your job. Yeah. Now that I believe, because that comports with what I'm seeing in the job market, and the conversations that I'm having with hiring managers on a regular basis. This, I believe. So I'm like, where is this woman gonna go? Now, she had said, she's looking for a hybrid model. I'm not sure why. Because if you really go back and read what she said, she talks about how the days where she was in the office, she got f all done. But we'll get there in a second, I'm getting a little ahead of myself. But I'm like, where is she gonna find it, there's a better chance of her finding hybrid than fully remote at this point, because you do have some hiring managers and companies that are fairly sold on a hybrid model. This idea of you can have one or maybe two days at home as your puppy treat, but the rest of the time you need to be here. I've warned you before that, in my opinion, hybrid is a stepping stone to full RTO. It's a bridge to get you from point A to point B, it's the carrot rather than the stick. They just sort of hump you along. While you're here three days, let's make it four. When you hear four days, let's just go ahead and make it five. Let's just break the band aid off and do the damn thing. Again, I don't see any way around that. Oh, and I have some evidence to back up what I'm saying to again, I'm getting ahead of myself. So she said her office had a hybrid model three days at home two days in the office. And she described it as the perfect work life balance. So she talks about getting to see co workers on the in office days but then being able to really do the work on the three days when she was at home. Let's go back and look at this again. I found that I got a lot more work done. When I was working the hybrid days she said referring to her day spin at home. She added that in the office there were so many distractions and interruptions that she couldn't keep up with her workload. I was going home and working for hours because I couldn't get the work done. She said so Riddle me this Batman. If the days that you had In the office sucked, other than being able to come in and say, Hey, how's it going? How's the wife and kids? How's your husband? How's your mom and then and all that after you've had your little 20 to 30 minute of extrovert chit chat. If everything else is distractions and interruptions, and if you're really not enjoying it, then why would you want to go out and look for hybrid work? This makes no sense to me. This article, I think, is just weird. It's weird. Like, okay, I want to go and look for hybrid. It's the perfect work life balance, except it completely sucked ass. Go and read this for yourself. You'll see distractions and interruptions. I was going home and working for hours because I couldn't get the work done. The watercooler gossip has returned in full force and she feels like she's seeing less of routine. Okay, well, what's the point? Why would you say I want to go and look for hybrid. I'm going to call it the perfect work life balance. But then I will also readily admit that I didn't get my work done on the days that I was in the office and everything function better when I was at home. I don't get it. I find that weird. I do. As for this part about productivity, paranoia, as I told you, it's not about productivity. It's about control. It's about compliance. It's about obedience. It's about surveillance. This idea that the digital pan Opticon will go away is absurd. Go and revisit that creepy, dystopian video from the WEF. If you disbelieve me, this idea of reading your brainwaves and knowing what you're thinking at work, punishing you, rewarding you with your dopamine hit. If you think good things that are approved by the overlords, but punishing you, if you think about naughty thoughts that are disapproved by the overlords. That's creepy as hell. No, I don't think the digital pan Opticon. And surveillance is going anywhere. I think as I predicted before, I've also been vindicated on this the idea that people have to webcam themselves all day, if they work from home. I've warned you before that work from home, we'll get into this sticky wicket of you can do it but you're going to work for less money and you're going to webcam yourself all day long. Or use one of those awful programs that takes like every five seconds screenshots of everything that you did, and maybe webcam yourself at the same time to just for good measure. The surveillance for work from home will be intense, and it will be obvious so that you know you're being watched and you feel uncomfortable. I'm thinking back to Glenn Greenwald's book no place to hide. And the idea of we need that privacy to be able to explore and to express ourselves and to have the freedom to make mistakes. And the discomfort that comes from being constantly watched and knowing that you're constantly watched. It's a behavior modifier, for sure. And they know that, of course, they know that it's not coincidental. So that's what will happen to the work from home crowd. And then when you are to, well, the cameras are hidden, everything is covert, it's not super obvious that you're being filmed all the time. Because no one's going to punish you. If Sally Sue comes by the cubicle and says, Hey, I'm putting together a pickleball league would you like to be part of it so that you can give up your weekends with your family to be with us? Because you shouldn't be one of us. And we're a giant cult? Would you like to do that? Corporate America is not going to punish you for the five minutes that you spent chit chatting with Sally Sue, because you're doing something that they approve of. So it's not like cameras are going to come running out. Like if you've ever seen expos a type television, you know, or there's somebody says something and all of a sudden the camera crew just swarms them and it's obvious that they're on TV. Like that's that's not how surveillance in the office works. Its covert, its hidden. So you can relax a little bit more and say, well, at least I'm not being filmed relentlessly. At least they're not taking every five seconds screenshots of every freaking thing I do all day. But they are. They totally are. It's just that you don't know it. You get to have that feeling of relaxation, because the cameras are not in your face. And nobody's coming out and telling you we're screenshotting every blessed thing that you do. We're timing your bathroom breaks. We're watching how long the light stayed yellow on teams, we're watching all of it. They'll do that to you at home because they don't want you at home. But they won't be that obvious about it in the office. It's not about productivity. It's about surveillance. Another thing that I want to to point out this idea that closes the article on Business Insider, you're going to end up losing them anyway. No, you won't know you won't. A few, some maybe, yes. People who are unaware of what's going on in the economy, people who are unaware of what's going on in the job market. Probably some of the people from the toxic positivity crowd who think that you don't actually have to put any work in. If you just believe in something hard enough, and you keep a Pollyanna sunshine attitude about it, it will just show up on your doorstep, as if by magic. Now, some of those people probably will leave, because they have no idea what's waiting for them on the other side. By the time they know, by the time we're given anything close to some, I don't know halfway accurate. unemployment numbers. And we may never get there, by the way. But by the time John and Jane Q public and the toxic positivity and toxic optimism crowd catch on, to how close we are, how we're dangling by a thread, the dollar is devalued. And we're like, in a powder keg, at this point, by the time those people clue in Oh, you mean, I can't just quit my job and go find another one in 10 seconds like I could during the Great resignation. You mean, it's not 2021 anymore? By the time they wake up to that reality? It's going to be too late for them. So no, coming back to what I said originally, I do not think that John and Jane Q Public across the whole country will have a sit out and let themselves and their children starve over RTO mandates. I think most people are going back. Reference the Amazon petition and angry Slack channel. If you doubt me. If you think that corporate America will not hesitate to cut these people loose, you're dreaming. Are you going to go along to get along? Are you going to toe the line? Or are you going to be a problem pal? And people who have a big rebellion, about RTO versus work from home are going to be categorized as a problem. They may or may not go out into the marketplace and find something else quickly. Maybe, maybe, but when I see the resistance from hiring managers about fully remote when I see the lack of remote postings, especially when you juxtapose it with 2020 2021, and even 22 It's crazy. It's crazy. But okay, in the mainstream media, because this one person, this one person quit a six figure job to avoid RTO and is talking about productivity paranoia, because it's one person did it. Champagne wishes and caviar dreams, you could and should do it too. And maybe you'll have a great outcome. Well, I'm here to tell you, maybe you won't. I don't ever give you advice. I don't tell you what to do or what not to do. You have to make these decisions for yourself. Maybe you're trapped in some hellscape. And the prospect of unemployment is better than the hellscape. I don't know. Each person listening to this broadcast today will have a different set of circumstances and a different financial profile. Maybe you are that person that just inherited a big wad of money. Maybe Great Aunt Harriet died and left you with a huge pot of money and you can do whatever the hell you want. I daresay for most of us, that's not reality. Now let's leave up over to another article that was published on Easter Sunday. Over on CNBC we find the coming commercial real estate crash that may never happen. In the TLDR key points we read. Concerns about a commercial real estate crash have followed the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank and regional banking crisis. Some bank real estate loans may be threatened by persistence of work from home. Almost a quarter of office building loans need to be refinanced in the next year at higher rates and lower quality properties where vacancy rates are high are at the greatest risk. But industrial retail and hotels are solid. And they show this picture of an office where no one's there. All the equipment is there but there aren't any people. We read only two months ago s l Greene and company Chief Executive Mark Holliday was sounding happy. The head of New York's biggest commercial landlord firm told Wall Street analysts that traffic to the company's buildings was picking up and more than 1 million square feet of space was either recently leased or in negotiations. The company's debt was down. It had finished the structure for its one Madison Avenue tower in Manhattan and local officials had just completed an extension of commuter rail We'll service from Long Island to greens flagship tower near Grand Central Station. We are full guns blazing holiday said on the quarterly earnings call with workers headed back to offices after a pandemic that rocked developers as more people work from home, raising the question of how much office space companies really need anymore. We can hopefully continue on a path to what we think will be a pivot year for us in 2023. Then Silicon Valley Bank failed and Wall Street panicked. Shares of developers and the banks that lend to them dropped sharply and bank shares have stayed low. Analysts raised concerns that developers might default on a big chunk of $3.1 trillion of US commercial real estate loans. Goldman Sachs says are outstanding. Almost a quarter of mortgages on office buildings must be refinanced in 2023. According to Mortgage Bankers Association data with higher interest rates than the 3% paper that stuff's banks portfolios. Now you can bet it will be higher than 3%. Other analysts wondered how landlords could find new tenants as old leases expire this year with Office vacancy rates at record highs, and quote. Interesting. Let's scroll down. Before I comment on this. Let's scroll down under the heading what the Fed has said about commercial real estate. We're well aware of the concentrations people have in commercial real estate, Jerome Powell said at a march 22 press conference, I really don't think it's comparable to this. The banking system is strong, it is sound, it is resilient, it's well capitalized. The commercial real estate market is a bigger issue than a few banks, which mismanaged risk in bond portfolios and the deterioration in conditions for Class B office space will have wide reaching economic impacts, including the tax base of municipalities across the country where empty offices remain a significant source of concern and quote, yeah, do you think let's let's just step back from this for a second. This is another area where let's play the odds. What do you think the odds are of John and Jane Q Public quitting, and laying at home with no money letting their kids starve over work from home versus our to? What do you think the odds are? That these municipalities, hungry for tax money? And all of this commercial real estate? What do you think the odds are? That corporate America and the bankers and the fat cats and the politicians, they carry around like nickels and dimes? What do you think the odds are that they would all just say, Forget it? We'll just let commercial real estate fail, we will let that market fail. We will let these offices remain empty and who gives a crap. We'll let the cities go without tax revenue that they're begging for. We'll just we'll ignore the government's will ignore the mayor's will ignore corporate real estate, we will let all of that go to hell. Because John and Jane Q Public are having a sit out for remote work. What do you think the odds are of that? I have to believe that even if some kind of remote work protest gained traction, it would easily be overcome by scabs and robots. And no, I don't personally think that all of these companies are going to bulldoze their corporate real estate. Nor do I think that those buildings will just stay open and unoccupied forever. I don't see it happening. If you think about what the interest rates were, when they were financed before versus what the interest rates are now. If those loans need to be refinanced at a higher interest rate, how in the hell are they going to be able to do that without tenants inside the building paying the rent? I mean, this is just common sense. You don't have to be an economist, you don't have to be a financial expert to go wait a minute. How can somebody pay more money for a product when they have less money in their possession to afford it? This is just common sense. It's just common sense. At least to me anyway, it just feels very like overt in your face. Not difficult to suss out. But yeah, you're supposed to believe one person quit in order to go find remote work. And so therefore everybody else could and should quit. Commercial real estate will just roll up the sidewalks. Really? I'm not I'm not sold on that. No, I'm not. Now if you want to make the argument of the 15 Minute city, I'll listen as I called it in a recent blog post if I can speak properly, a recent blog post that got suppressed and 15 Second prison, where you live upstairs and then you commute downstairs to work and live in the same Reza mercial office space. If you want to make those arguments to me, I will listen. I think that there's validity to that. But if you're telling me that corporate real estate will get bulldozed, and it will all turn into parks for children and dogs and sunshine and rainbows and we live happily ever after. That's not an argument that I'm going to listen to. I think it's absurd. I think it's crazy. I hope that you have an RTO Survival Plan roughed out, I hope that you have a job loss Survival Plan roughed down. And I hope that you're ready for whatever's coming. Because I don't have the answer to that question. I don't know recession, depression 1970s era stagflation. I don't know. What I feel confident on, however, is that if corporate America says the majority of people are going back to the office, in the absence of something like a natural disaster, World War Three, a grid down situation, another pandemic, etc. In the absence of some earth shattering event, you're going back? No, I don't think everybody will sit it down at home, make no money and let their kids starve in order to be ideological about the issue. I don't see that happening. Nor do I think that commercial real estate will roll up the sidewalks and bulldoze the buildings. I don't think so. Make up your own mind about these things and be judicious about who you're listening to. and for what reason? Stay safe, stay sane. And I will see you in the next episode. Thanks for tuning in. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a quick second to subscribe to this podcast and share it with your friends. We'll see you next time.